Ah….the abortion issue. People have made so many arguments about it by saying, it's illegal to commit murder, yet isn't killing an unborn baby murder? Personally I don't care what a person will do with there baby, as it is there choice, and there choice alone. I've known a lot of friends who wish they could have had an abortion but they can't because of there religion. Now they're out of school and taking care of there baby…

And no I didn't knock them up, it's just finding out from my sister whose friends still kept in touch with them. On that note, I'm leaving the abortion thing along…

DonkeyPunch
However, what people who are broke or have no insurance do, is go to the Emergency room because it's free, for stupid shit like a cold, which fills up the lobby and keeps doctors, nurses and other employees from doing what they're really supposed to do, work on those who are there for an actual emergency. This is why a woman dropped dead in the lobby of a hospital in LA because no one had time to get to her.

Well, in my experience, the Emergency Room is not free. I was sent home from college once because one of my teachers assumed I had strep (she was right, apparently the glands in my neck were the size of golf balls). They had me sit around for hours while they ran a strep test that I found out later only takes 15 minutes to show results. On top of that, the ER was so slow that one of the doctors used me as a prank and asked for a photo of the inside of my throat which he apparently forwarded to another doctor via his cell phone. wtf? Talk about professional.

Anyway… for months after that my parents were locked in a long and stupid battle with the insurance company to get them to pay for my hospital visit and medication. Our insurance demanded that since I wasn't a full-time student (which I was), they could not cover me. We sent them all sorts of documentation from my school stating my status and still I think it took almost a year to straighten it out.

I'm about ready for National Healthcare…. or the end of the world, as long as it's quick an mostly painless.

Obama all the way. mcain so old we'd be better off with bush!

Sinister
Why should it cost at all?

Because “The American Dream” is to live one's OWN life and make it on their OWN without interference from a government.

I don't want a government to take care of me. I want to take care of me, and to Hell with someone choosing which hospital I go to, or how much I should make or what my job should be, or how I should raise my kids.

I want the option to pay for the best healthcare money can buy, and not be required to pay for everyone else's healthcare like Obama wants.

“Shared responsibility” is possibly the most offensive thing about Obama's (and formerly Clinton's) campaign. I am NOT responisble for everyone. While there are many who DO need a helping hand, there are just as many, if not more who abuse systems like welfare. You don't believe me? Work a fast food restaurant sometime. You'll learn to hate the 1st of the month. It's “Socialism 101.”

All that aside, the fact is that running a healthcare system costs money. Doctors aren't going to go to school for 10+ years to pull in 35K a year…which is what will happen if the government gets the idea to try and decide to run yet ANOTHER program into the dirt. Said doctor will also not make that 35K a year only to be in debt the rest of his life because he got his ass sued off when he makes an honest mistake or has something happen that he has no control over, or some bastard wanted to make a quick buck, which are the majority of lawsuits in this country.


You know what? Most of the gripes with this country are moot with a presidential election, anyways.

Everyone loves to blame the president for all of our problems, which is the genius of our system of government. The blame gets shifted from where the cancer of our country lies…congress.

Shit doesn't happen in this country without congresional approval. We need a new congress, not a new president.


At the end, I don't truly support EITHER candidate, and pick merely for who is going to invade my life and try to run it FOR me the least. McCain.

To use Michelle Obama's “pie” analogy, I say this:

“America is a place of apple pie. The constitution, and the founding principles of America are the recipe for apple pie. I work hard to make my apple pie, and I will eat it or share it as I see fit. Everyone is given the recipe, and I don't wish to share my pie with those who are too lazy to work in the kitchen. I will gladly share some pie with a poor soul who lost his, or just can't seem to keep from burning his, but at least he's trying. Bottom line is, the pie is mine. I made it. Keep your damned paws off of it!”


I used to be a straight-ticket republican. Every party went left. The democrats turned into liberal socialist PC-nazis instead of what they used to stand for….and the republican party turned into a party that just keeps missing the damned point. It's like they all turned into ADD-ridden ferrets who are distracted by anything shiny, and fixate on it instead of what needs to get done. My party left me out in the cold wondering where the hell I politically belong.



My choice? Other.

Resurrect Ronald Reagan. I'm sure at least Ron would agree.

Seriously, though…my hopes died when Mitt Romney dropped out.




Jeff, I'm curious. You seem to have an axe to grind. I'm about as conservative as the come without being unhinged, was a republican (who feels his party has left him), and is anything BUT liberal….and you seem to like me well enough. (meant jokingly, of course, but I'm curious if I should be afraid of you and the rest of Nightsquad shunning the Belmont you've come to know and love for so many years)

Vincent Belmont

Sinister
Why should it cost at all?

Because “The American Dream” is to live one's OWN life and make it on their OWN without interference from a government.

I don't want a government to take care of me. I want to take care of me, and to Hell with someone choosing which hospital I go to, or how much I should make or what my job should be, or how I should raise my kids.

I want the option to pay for the best healthcare money can buy, and not be required to pay for everyone else's healthcare like Obama wants.

That's the trick though. People want government interference when it suits them. Money for nothing. We take care of other people now with the taxes we're already paying. That cash goes to people that don't always need or deserve it. This of course opens a much larger can of worms, fixing on the inside before change can occur on the outside and all that, but I'm merely pointing that out.

Really, national healthcare tells you where to get medical attention? Plenty of insurance companies and HMO's do that now, that is, unless you can pony up some serious cash.

Vincent Belmont
(I'm curious if I should be afraid of you and the rest of Nightsquad shunning the Belmont you've come to know and love for so many years)

Aw, never. (^_^)

I'd vote Reagan/Goldwater Zombies 08 if we can fanaggle and get Gingrich SecState and Sam Nunn SecDef.

On a different note. Enough with the abortion discussion, this is the Mod in me coming out, if you want to continue that can o' worms take it to a new thread as it is only slightly germane to the overall concept of this thread and quite frankly we can debate about it being right/wrong for years.

As far as Healthcare, why is Obama any different than McCain? I hate to break it to you guys, but follow the money. Why is it Exxon has contributed more to Obama this cycle than McCain? Why is it that Insurance and Pill companies are dumping large amounts in every candidates pocket. Not just Presedential, but Senators, et al.

Do you really think they are going to risk being booted? This isn't Mr. Smith Goes to Washington and very few of our elected officals will willingly risk being booted in an election.

You want National Healthcare? Might as well get over it. It's not happening until it's unprofitable for companies to do it.

Vincent Belmont
Jeff, I'm curious. You seem to have an axe to grind. I'm about as conservative as the come without being unhinged, was a republican (who feels his party has left him), and is anything BUT liberal….and you seem to like me well enough. (meant jokingly, of course, but I'm curious if I should be afraid of you and the rest of Nightsquad shunning the Belmont you've come to know and love for so many years)

My problem with the Republican voterbase is I see them as ignorant hicks who only vote for the conservatives because they'll vote for anyone who's in favor of the Bible, all the while completely missing the fact that they themselves are poor, while Republican economic plans favor the rich and self-sufficient, in essence, screwing themselves.

So in summary, I dislike most Republicans because I dislike stupid, self-destructive people.

You sir are exempt because you are not a stupid, self-destructive person. I like you because you're a free thinker, Belmont. You make up your own damn mind using logic, reason, and education. You have a good reason to take the stances you do, and I respect people who have thought their stances out, even if I don't agree with those stances.

Jen Spengler
That's the trick though. People want government interference when it suits them. Money for nothing. We take care of other people now with the taxes we're already paying. That cash goes to people that don't always need or deserve it. This of course opens a much larger can of worms, fixing on the inside before change can occur on the outside and all that, but I'm merely pointing that out.

I'm not arguing that. That's the whole problem with America. Don't think for a second that I think this is restricted to the poor and destitute. I have four words for that: Government Bail-outs for Businesses.

Jen Spengler
Really, national healthcare tells you where to get medical attention? Plenty of insurance companies and HMO's do that now, that is, unless you can pony up some serious cash.

Granted, but you still have the choice of plenty of insurance companies to suit your needs. National Healthcare is one giant HMO. You only have one choice, and it's whatever they give you. That scares the piss out of me.

Jen Spengler

Vincent Belmont
(I'm curious if I should be afraid of you and the rest of Nightsquad shunning the Belmont you've come to know and love for so many years)

Aw, never. (^_^)

That makes the Belmont very happy! (*peter)

Vincent Belmont

Sinister
Why should it cost at all?

Because “The American Dream” is to live one's OWN life and make it on their OWN without interference from a government.

I don't want a government to take care of me. I want to take care of me, and to Hell with someone choosing which hospital I go to, or how much I should make or what my job should be, or how I should raise my kids.

I want the option to pay for the best healthcare money can buy, and not be required to pay for everyone else's healthcare like Obama wants.

“Shared responsibility” is possibly the most offensive thing about Obama's (and formerly Clinton's) campaign. I am NOT responisble for everyone. While there are many who DO need a helping hand, there are just as many, if not more who abuse systems like welfare. You don't believe me? Work a fast food restaurant sometime. You'll learn to hate the 1st of the month. It's “Socialism 101.”

All that aside, the fact is that running a healthcare system costs money. Doctors aren't going to go to school for 10+ years to pull in 35K a year…which is what will happen if the government gets the idea to try and decide to run yet ANOTHER program into the dirt. Said doctor will also not make that 35K a year only to be in debt the rest of his life because he got his ass sued off when he makes an honest mistake or has something happen that he has no control over, or some bastard wanted to make a quick buck, which are the majority of lawsuits in this country.


You know what? Most of the gripes with this country are moot with a presidential election, anyways.

Everyone loves to blame the president for all of our problems, which is the genius of our system of government. The blame gets shifted from where the cancer of our country lies…congress.

Shit doesn't happen in this country without congresional approval. We need a new congress, not a new president.


At the end, I don't truly support EITHER candidate, and pick merely for who is going to invade my life and try to run it FOR me the least. McCain.

To use Michelle Obama's “pie” analogy, I say this:

“America is a place of apple pie. The constitution, and the founding principles of America are the recipe for apple pie. I work hard to make my apple pie, and I will eat it or share it as I see fit. Everyone is given the recipe, and I don't wish to share my pie with those who are too lazy to work in the kitchen. I will gladly share some pie with a poor soul who lost his, or just can't seem to keep from burning his, but at least he's trying. Bottom line is, the pie is mine. I made it. Keep your damned paws off of it!”


I used to be a straight-ticket republican. Every party went left. The democrats turned into liberal socialist PC-nazis instead of what they used to stand for….and the republican party turned into a party that just keeps missing the damned point. It's like they all turned into ADD-ridden ferrets who are distracted by anything shiny, and fixate on it instead of what needs to get done. My party left me out in the cold wondering where the hell I politically belong.



My choice? Other.

Resurrect Ronald Reagan. I'm sure at least Ron would agree.

Seriously, though…my hopes died when Mitt Romney dropped out.




Jeff, I'm curious. You seem to have an axe to grind. I'm about as conservative as the come without being unhinged, was a republican (who feels his party has left him), and is anything BUT liberal….and you seem to like me well enough. (meant jokingly, of course, but I'm curious if I should be afraid of you and the rest of Nightsquad shunning the Belmont you've come to know and love for so many years)

And yet it's the government who takes care of people from military threats, terrorist threats, major health threats (US CDC), criminal threats (FBI). But threats to every day health are different? I don't understand that. There are poor people in Britain who can't afford expensive healthcare plans, not through laziness, but just because shit happens. People get raw deals that they can't get out of, no matter how hard they try. Why is it so bad for a government to provide national healthcare for those that sicken, those that injur themselves, without requiring you to have insurance? No one I know has ever been told to go to different hospitals, they're practically all NHS, you go to the nearest one to your accident or where you report to if it's not that severe.

Isn't the American dream “a government for the people, by the people”? Well that to me sounds like a welfare state, the government looks out for the people regardless of whether they're rich or poor. Wealth does not make you a worthier person. Wealth means you can splurge on material posessions and fast cars, it shouldn't be the only way to get treated.

Belmont you sound more like a Libertarian then a Republican.